Discipled Leader

Ep. 8 – Stand: As a disciple, stand tall. As a leader, overcome fear with faith.

• Preston Poore, Caroline Poore, and Benton Poore • Season 1 • Episode 8

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0:00 | 42:55

In this episode, we have a discussion on spiritual warfare in the workplace and how to overcome your leadership fears w/ Rick Dunn, Fellowship Church Lead Pastor in Knoxville, TN, Life Reframed podcast host, and author. 

Questions and lessons explored in this episode: 

  • Are you experiencing spiritual warfare? If so, how do you know? Are you winning or losing? If you are losing, what can you do? 
  • What are your greatest fears? How do they impact you? How can you begin to overcome them? 
  • What role does courage play in leadership, and why is it important? 
  • How will these discipleship and leadership principles help you transform your workplace through your pursuit of Christ? 

Discipled Leader is a show that provides struggling, stuck, or merely surviving Christian Business leaders with a framework to grow their influence through becoming a redemptive (i.e., change for the better), Christlike presence in the workplace, and living a more fulfilling personal and professional life. www.prestonpoore.com

SPEAKER_02

Hi, I'm Preston Poorn. Welcome to the Disciple Leader Podcast. Along with my young, professional co-host and adult children, Caroline Bennett, and a special guest, we'll explore a life-changing framework designed to help struggling, stunned, or merely surviving Christian business leaders grow their influence by becoming a redemptive, Christ-like presence in the workplace, and living a more fulfilling life. Buckle up and get ready to be transformed. Hi, everybody, it's Preston Poorn. Welcome to the Disciple Leader Podcast. So excited you're here today. I'm joined by my co-host and adult children, Caroline and Benton, and uh just really appreciate your time today. Today, today we're gonna chat with a special guest and gain their insights on Disciple Leader's seventh chapter, Stand, and discuss how to apply your faith in the workplace. Caroline's gonna facilitate today's discussion, and then be sure to stick around for Benton's hot seat, where we'll get to know a little bit more about our guests through a rapid, rapid fire, humorous series of questions. So we're excited about that. Uh, each of the chapters I've set up in uh certain ways, and I've got a dual principle for each chapter, and uh one for discipleship, one for leadership. And chapter seven's principle is this it's as a disciple, stand tall. As a leader, overcome fear with faith. And for each chapter, I wrote a quick summary. And uh the summary for this chapter is this doing the right thing often demands an unwavering persistence and belief that you are in fact doing the right thing. When an adversary uh attacks, remember one of the Bible's most repeated phrases fear not. And today's anchor scripture comes from Ephesians 6, 10 through 13, verses 10 through 13, out of the New International Version, and it says this finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore, put on the full armor of God so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you've done everything, to stand. So today we're going to talk about spiritual warfare and overcoming fear. Some pretty, pretty heady topics and heavy topics. But before we get going today, I've got this special honor and privilege to introduce today's guest. Now, quick bio on this gentleman, this guest, it says this. It says he served at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in Chicago as a chair of the Department of Educational Ministries. I think that's where he gets his love or started his love of all things Chicago. Uh, he's an author. He's also the Life Reframed Podcast co-host, and he's the lead pastor of Fellowship Church in Knoxville, Tennessee. Our guest is married to Teresa, a licensed clinical therapist, and they have three wonderful children, Jessica, Zach, and Ben. And on top of all that, our guest is a personal friend of mine, a mentor, and he played a huge role in helping me bring the Disciple Leader to life. It's my pleasure to welcome to the Disciple Leader Podcast, Rick Dunn. Rick, welcome.

SPEAKER_03

Hey, thanks for having me, Preston. It's a dream come true to be able to have this conversation with you and with Caroline and Benton. So thanks for asking.

SPEAKER_02

You bet, thank you. So, Caroline, why don't you get us started?

SPEAKER_00

Very cool. Um, Rick, I'm just honored to be able to interview you today. Um, obviously, I have sat under your leadership for a very long time and especially in my formative years through middle school and high school. So this is a really special interview for me as well. Um, and like my dad reference, kind of a heady and heavy topic. Um, but as believers, we really do have a way to overcome, you know, the struggles that we face in spiritual warfare. So I'll start with a couple of questions for you, just on the fact that as Christians and leaders, we all face spiritual warfare. But how do you identify that? And then what are some ways that you address it?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So, first of all, great to see you and talk with you. Really fun. And that is a brilliant question. It's just a it's such a perfect question to begin with. How do you know? So if you'll give me about two or three minutes to build a little bit of a of a context for the answering that question, I think I can get right at it for you.

SPEAKER_05

Please.

SPEAKER_03

Um here's what I say about leadership. If if the way ahead is smooth and comfortable, if the rewards are quick and everybody already wants to go there, you don't need a leader. You just need a facilitator, a tour guide. But as you know, Caroline, and as as Preston really represents well in the disciple leader, leadership is about taking play people places that are not comfortable, they're actually very difficult.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um, it's taking places, people places where the rewards are actually further down. The the immediate reward is rarely there. And when you're leading into a new and healthy and good place organizationally, personally, as a family, as a team. And and then finally, if our default setting was to want to go there, we would already be there. Right. So when we think about that for a moment, now let's think about spiritual warfare on the believer. If one of the challenges we have is moving people to places that aren't comfortable, which means we have to go there first, our enemy is going to work really hard to make that more uncomfortable. To try to discourage us, to convince us it's just not worth it. And then as we often as we make spiritual progress, as you know, it actually can feel like you're going backwards. For for instance, even I'll take the metaphor of a marriage. If a marriage says, hey, we want to work on this particular issue, it's not likely that your first shot at it's gonna go real well. You're actually probably gonna expose more of what you need to work on. So, in leadership, in our own journey of as leaders and leading other people, the initial movement into something's already hard, and the enemy's gonna whisper the lie into our ears that this isn't gonna work, this is a bad idea. You know, it's God's really not that good, and this leader doesn't know what he's doing, or we this leader doesn't know what she's doing, and she's completely lost, lost perspective. And then, of course, finally that you lose the motivation to go there. So if we're not realizing, Caroline, that um that we're in this spiritual battle, we'll misunderstand those. But so that leads us to this. Um, it's hard sometimes to know what's spiritual warfare and what's just leadership, because leadership is just a hard thing to do. But it's really affects us in two ways when we're in spiritual warfare. One, uh our perspective and second, our posture. And as uh as just articulated so well by Preston and the disciple leader, it's uh it's faith over fear. So the perspective we have to have is the battle is the Lord's. And so when the enemy comes in and tries to discourage us and defeat us and cause us, you're like, we yeah, you're right. I can't do this, and I can't move these people, and it's not going to work unless the Lord chooses for it to work. And since I've been called to be faithful, I'm going to move in and he's going to do his work. It may not look exactly like what I thought it would. Yeah. But I guarantee you the battle is the Lord's, and I can go into that battle. So that's my perspective of faith. And then my posture is that I know I'm going to have to wait and see the goodness and the work of the Lord. Everything in scripture tells us that that reward, that strength, that power, even the example that Preston used in the chapter about working in his neighborhood, it didn't happen all at once. The first time you go into it, it's not likely to. And what the enemy's going to do is try to get you out of that posture of waiting and to get you there to do one of two things, to take control and make it about you, which loses the perspective. The battle is the Lord's, and the enemy's always wanting you to make it about you. He is less concerned about you thinking you've won, and more concerned about you thinking you did it and not gone. And sin, so he's going to go after that, and he's going to get us to try not to be willing to wait or just to get discouraged and give up, which is a bit of what the chapter does. So standing means I've got to have a perspective. The battle is the Lord's. I'll stand strong and move into this. And I gotta have a posture. I'm really gonna have to wait on him to create the results because that's not my job. My job's just to be faithful. So I can identify when I start hearing those whispers, you're not good, you don't know what you're doing, God's not on your side, the people are against you. They won't, or I see that in our people. And then I start seeing, hey, we're in, we're we're dealing with something else in the room, just besides human weakness and frailty and struggle and humanity. That's when I know there's something else going on.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. No, I love that you call out the discernment between leadership and spiritual warfare. Um, and just talked a little bit about perspective and posture. It's kind of ironic that the title of this chapter is to stand, um, to understand what God's called you to, to be ready to move, to understand that it ultimately is his work through us. Um so would you mind shedding some light on when it is just tough leadership? How you might pray through that even.

SPEAKER_03

Right. So a couple of things on that. One is um I really like to feel good. I don't know if everybody else listening does or not. I like ice cream and I like uh I like sitting at the beach and I like being warm on a cold day. Like I like that kind of a comfort. And I know that it's leadership when I'm stepping out of that and moving forward, when I'm the choice is being made. And I know when I've sensed through discernment, through the word, through the spirit, through others. Um, you know, Preston talked about my journey with him on the disciple leaders. It's not like he sat down and just wrote that one day. I mean, there's a journey there, there's a walking through, there's lots of input and perspective and people speaking in. So he's on this journey of doing this. And that's leadership is like that. It's it's a journey and it has good days and bad days. It's no different than uh playing on a football team. You're gonna gain some yards, you're gonna lose some yards, that's just part of the deal. That's leadership. But on those days when I hear like condemnation, you're a you're not you're a loser, you're not a good leader, it's not worth it. I hear uh lack of uh perspective on and feel like, man, you better fix this, Rick. You can't let this happen. You and I I start that fear starts coming out of me. I know the enemy's trying to spin me. And that's when I know I'm like, wait, I gotta pray and to the chapter's point. I need to stand in who I am, stand in who I am in the Lord. Let the Lord fight that part of the battle because I can't, you know, Caroline, it's really important is I can't fight a spiritual battle on my own because I'm not God. Right. But I can access partnership, submission to obedience to him, and he'll fight that battle because that battle is the Lord's. And so that's how my biggest thing is it's a lot of when I'm starting to feel anxious, I'm starting to feel afraid, I'm starting to feel inadequate, I'm starting to feel condemned. All of things that scripture teach me, the Spirit of God would never say those things to me. Yeah, he would never condemn me, he would never cause me to be afraid other than to be worshiping him.

SPEAKER_00

Right, right. So I think that's a huge point is recalling truth. Um, and that's exactly the sword of the spirit, right? Putting on the armor of God, having that as a weapon truly to combat all of those thoughts and to be able to discern.

SPEAKER_03

So yes, and so just to speak off for a moment, because the chapter outlines this, those, all of those, you know, uh the helmet of salvation, the sword of the spirit. And that means that we are in a spiritual battle, we have an enemy who opposes us. Everything, if Jesus was opposed, we're going to be opposed. And yet, we are not living in a scarcity model, we're living in an abundance model. And by that I mean we've got the abundance of all this uh spiritual armor, we've got the abundance of all these resources, we've got the abundance of the Spirit of God. We are ultimately on the winning team of the spiritual battle, even though it may, we may get lost and hurt in some skirmishes along the way. And so to your point, yeah, I'm gonna stand in those things that are true and I know are real because that's that's my abundance, regardless of how it looks or feels on the outside.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. Uh part of the Christ's life is absolutely abundance. So, with all this and how you recall truth and how you identify kind of the word or even the voice sometimes of the enemy. Can you recall a time where you were feeling intimidated and just kind of walk us through the scenario and then what you did to overcome?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's probably about 300 and out of 365 days a year. And I'm 60. So let me just think a moment where to start.

SPEAKER_00

Um honest, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, well, so just a little quick thing. I I am uh from a very anxious family system. I say of people, there's people who grow up in families that are construction families, like three generations of people who build things. And there's people who are like chefs and their kids that help in the restaurant. So my family produced anxiety and like we were really good at it. So if you could, if you could make money producing anxiety, I would be living on an island right now.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So that's my natural default, Caroline. And people would say of me, you just don't seem anxious. Well, that's because I and I've had to learn and understand. I don't have a choice, Caroline. I don't have a I don't get to wake up in the beginning of the day and think I can do this by myself. So to take a specific scenario, I'm being faithful to what I think God wants me to do. Um, I'm leading the team in the way I want to. Um we're making some progress. I'm pretty important, and then all of a sudden something just really horrible happens. Um a group of uh teammates rise up and kind of are unwilling to go. A group of people on the outside begin a false narrative about me and spread that and make that into a accusations about what my motives are and who I am, and accuse me of things and or or quite honestly, I just do stupid. I just do stupid. It was it was self-inflicted. I just messed up, and now not only do I have this challenge, the false narrative, but I've given ammunition to the people who are right.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And the enemy's gonna be all over that. He's gonna increase the lies about me. He's going to um say to me, see, you you can't get it done. You're you're not the person. He's going to um he's gonna say, uh, it's just like in the garden. The first lie that Satan uses is God didn't say that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, did he really? Somebody meant. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Like Rick, did he really call you to do that? I mean, it's just really, or you just kind of, you know, so that stuff starts happening for me. And then I've got to go back to the word. I've got to go back to, you know what? The battle is the Lord's. And even if I've wrong and done stupid, that's not my job's not to make all that right. My job's just to be faithful.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I've got to ask the Spirit to lead me and give me insight and discernment. I often ask the Spirit of God to expose where the enemy's at work. And me, and and just because someone opposes me doesn't mean that's spiritual warfare. Sometimes they're just opposing me, and sometimes they might even be right.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, little check and balance.

SPEAKER_03

It becomes a culture of fear instead of a culture of working together. I know the enemy's after. He's trying to divide and divide and conquer. And in that, those moments, and I've got so many of them, but I'm just thinking one in particular, it was just absolutely essential for me to wait and to hear the voice of the Lord reassuring, bringing confidence through the word and the spirit, and go to a couple of two or three trusted advisors, one of whom would be my wife, who's going to help speak truth into me, because she'll tell me the truth even if it hurts.

SPEAKER_05

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03

But a couple of friends and mentors who I would go, I have an executive coach that I go talk to, just to, hey, this is what I'm thinking, this is where I'm kind of getting um intimidated, I'm getting lost in all this. Help me get back. Because once, you know, truthfully, Caroline, once a leader has clarity and she knows or he knows this is what the will of God is, that's when you become fearless. Because that's where the courage comes from. Not be that it's going to work or it's going to not hurt, or that people are going to follow you. It's that this is the thing I've been called to do. And so that's how you you deal with that. And then you you move forward instead of letting that resistance cause you to either fall back or just kind of start flailing your sword around trying to attack back. That's that doesn't work either.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. Well, the book quotes uh that the most victorious Christian is a witnessing Christian. And uh what you've just spoken to really is the fact that the will of God, one, can't be thwarted, but when uh we are able to identify the enemy's tactics, then we're truly able to mobilize in towards that witnessing and that disciple making. Um, so I think movement is a big part of this. So discerning when to move and when to wait. Um, but you've given examples thus far saying sometimes I wait and I go to the word of God. Sometimes, you know, I use that sort of the spirit or I ask friends, right? Your wise counsel, people around you. So um two really good tools to just regain courage and regain the confidence of God.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And so here's the way I describe it. It it takes a village for me to lead. So that's just the reality. But but that, when I say that, we kind of laugh about that. And it's, you know, it's kind of a funny line, but it's actually the truth. I tell I work with a lot of young leaders. Here's the two things I tell a young leader. Here are the two lies that you're gonna believe and the enemy's gonna try to convince you of. Line number one, you're supposed to always know what to do. Line number two, you're supposed to be able to do it by yourself. That's young lead, that's the mistake of young leaders, is I'm supposed to know what to do. No, you're called to be faithful, and he'll get you what you need to take the next step. And if you try doing that by yourself, you are you are vulnerable. You know, we think we think of um, you know, when uh when the lion lionesses hunt in the in the jungle, they're going after the one they can isolate, either the one that's alone, the one that's weak, whatever. You get you get the herd scattered and you go after the isolated one. And that's exactly what the enemy wants to do is to isolate us and go after us.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, I think it brings a good point to uh just bringing ideas to light, bringing needs to light, you know, the fact that you can't do something on your own, say it to the people around you and resources start to develop um if it's a good and true and worthy idea. I like you, Rick, have to wake up and you know, basically repeat truths to myself that are not anxious thoughts. Otherwise, I'd be on my um anxiety yacht. I'll join you. I'm going to join you in the island.

SPEAKER_03

I'll wave at you sometime when we uh when we grieve about each other. Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Just point me back in the other direction, back to the to the word again and everything. Um but yeah, so I think that's really good just to identify that those things are not truth. Um, and the point that you just said, don't do it by yourself. Um, that's not necessarily leadership.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and it's not. And um, you know, um this whole idea of being adequate as a leader, it doesn't seem to be as important to God as it is to our culture. Because if you look at the people he's choosing, um I'm I'm actually I'm working on my own kind of a book and work right now on on the idea of the the choice of God to make his heart vulnerable to us. Not that he's codependent and has to he that he can uh is somehow like, hey, if you don't love me, I'm gonna be hurt. It's not that it's because I do love you, Rick. And when you pull away or when you're not there, when you don't listen, when you don't follow, it it does hurt me because I love you. And and God is he waits for us, he's vulnerable in that. And what he asks of us is to be vulnerable with him. And so I'm gonna begin every challenging leadership thing in front of me by assuming I am inadequate and I am vulnerable so that I can touch the heart of God for me, and then he he meets me there, and then I become invulnerable. Not that I can't be hurt or wounded, but that I ultimately I'm secure. I'm secure in him, and I have hope in him. And since it's his battle, one way or the other, he's gonna accomplish his will. And and there have been times, you know, Caroline, when I've said to the Lord, I've said, literally, actually, I did this within the last week. I literally said this. I hope you, I hope this brings you pleasure because this is miserable to me. This this is just miserable. This is just hard, right? Yeah, yeah. See, he's not there. Right. See, it's hard, he's not there. See, you feel inadequate, he's not there. And the truth is, no, that's exactly when he's there. And he's chosen to be vulnerable to me so that I could be vulnerable with him to prepare myself. And that's what's so standing comes from our inadequacy and our vulnerability in ourselves that is found with strength and and and security in him.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. That's incredible. Um, seeking that vulnerable position. It's just kind of crazy to me that once we become vulnerable or we humble ourselves and we go there with God, that he's so incredibly generous to give us power and all these tools. So like just comment on that. Just why God would choose to share all of it with us to go get things done and accomplished.

SPEAKER_03

Isn't that wild? Like he makes us a part of the plan. So just here's the thing, I say to people the most significant act of pursuit of us is bookended by the birth of a baby in a shed with two teenage children and the crucifixion of that. Person on a cross in humiliation and agony, which follows the resurrection. So the power of God comes in the form of the humility and the vulnerability of his own heart to us. And from that comes the power into the world, right? If we can understand that, then what we can understand is that's what he's asking of us. Come to him and in our vulnerable place, in our humility, and his power will begin to work through us. Because if if if Rick or Preston or Caroline or Benton or anybody else involved in this whole disciple leader thing, if we could do it on our own, it would be an insufficient task. Because we are designed to do things that demonstrate his power and his glory and his goodness and his humility and his vulnerability to us. And so this crazy thing, I think God would get the most glory if he just made me super strong and I went out and made things happen for him. He'd be like, Go, go, son, go. You know, to be up in the stands cheering for me. Good job, son, right? And God is like, that's really not what I had in mind. As a matter of fact, my plan, Rick, is to back you into such a corner that you have nowhere to turn but me. So the world can see who I am and how I love you and how strong I am, and can see that I have overcome. Greater is he that's in you than he's that's in the world. And I have overcome the world, Rick. You've over you overcome because I've overcome. So I think that's why, Caroline, because at the end of the day, God's not trying to uh get a sticker to put back of his van that I'm an honor leader, right?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

After trying to say he's God and Rick's not. And it's crazy what God can actually do through someone like Rick. It's actually going to surprise you because if you know him really well, you'd be like, well, that's not gonna work, right?

SPEAKER_00

I think you're pretty great, but I do understand your point on ordinary people doing extraordinary things because we serve an extraordinary God.

SPEAKER_03

Only because only and the enemy wants to tell us we're not.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So we can't do that. Either wants to convince us that we're the extraordinary ones, yeah, or that we're too ordinary for God to care. And both of those are lies about him.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's good. That's good truth. Um, so courage. When we're backed into those corners, um, and God is, you know, drawing the glory to himself, uh, it does take cor courage to stand there. So, how do you find courage? And then I also want to know how you create a culture of courage amongst your team.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So a couple of things. One, you know, this chapter seven on stand articulates both in the main illustration and through the story and through the content. Uh, is even as Preston previewed this podcast, it this confidence that this is the right and good thing to me is this is the greatest source of courage. This it's this is the right and good thing. This is what ought to be done. And it ought to be done whether it quote works or not. It's not my job to make sure something works. It's my job to be about the right thing and let God decide on what level it works and to that degree. So the courage, I think, becomes from the conviction that I'm I'm a part of something bigger than myself. This really isn't about me. This isn't about I'm really a part of something that God wants to accomplish in the world and work. And I spend a lot of time with young leaders. That's probably about spend most of my time with leaders who are under the age of like 45 or so. And I know that sounds like, wait a second, those are young leaders. When you're my age, they're all young. The other day I was about to get on a plane and I looked at my pilot and I thought, my gosh, have you even shaved yet? This is not possible. But um, and so I find in there is this um this tendency to want to manufacture courage by not being afraid rather than like, yeah, I'm kind of anxious and scared here and I don't know what to do. And so, and yet I have confidence this is right and good, God's gonna show up. And I think that's the biblical leadership we see throughout the Old Testament and in the New Testament. I love the Old Testament stories, whether it's Moses or or Abraham or Daniel or Gideon. These are not people who are like, hey, I got it going on. Let me go rescue everybody. They're people who are like, I don't know how to do this. And God says, Yeah, but I do. And I think that's how we bring it to our team. This is what we're called to do. He knows what he's going to accomplish. And at the end of the day, as Paul said, nothing could separate us from the love of God. And that's that's really our hope. Nothing's gonna separate us. I'm not leading to prove myself a worthy leader, I'm leading to prove him to be a worthy God to worship. And that takes some of the pressure off of me of having to try to, you know, make everybody work. And and I think if I live under pressure to make it work, I put my team under pressure. Now, obviously, I'm gonna be wise and strategic, and it would be silly to not as I always say like if you're playing a sport and you're not playing to win, I doesn't make any, like it does make sense to me. Like if you're playing, play to win. If you're leading, play to lead to win. If you're in a corporation, if you're in a uh organization, play to be the best, be the strongest, and all those things. But don't measure yourself by whether you're there, how you get there, or whether you get there, measure yourself by whether or not you've been faithful with what's good and right and true. And that will cause everyone on your team to want to be that way as well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I love that you said you know the direction you're going or you want to move by what's right and good, but uh it's up to God, you know, as to what degree that works out. I like that you called that out.

SPEAKER_03

Um and here's where the enemy wants to go to tell you one, that's not right and good, but even more importantly, he's not right and good. That's the enemy's after him. We're just we're just in the line of fire. If you wanted to, uh if you wanted to get to me, go after my children. Yeah. And God's the same way. You want to get to him, go after your children. That's why the enemy comes after us. They're he's trying to get after him.

SPEAKER_00

Great, great comment. Yeah. That's very good. Um, so you said a lot of things around kind of discernment uh in ways to lead. So looking back at God, you know, correcting your perspective. You just mentioned that again. Um, understanding the real goal, right? When you're setting out to win, what's the actual goal? Um, I guess more on discernment, you know, is that something you find or you've found just over time in the word of God? And what would you say to someone who wants to grow in discernment? Right.

SPEAKER_03

Well, scripture even says that um we have our senses trained for discernment. And so there's actual a process of which we've learned. And so I think I I would I would kind of describe it this way. I was I was an AAU basketball coach for about a decade. Had I had I had the talent and the opportunity, I would have been a basketball coach instead of a pastor. So, but I know I neither got the talent or the opportunity. But um, I love the game. And I used to say to my players, you know, you you can shoot in the driveway, um, you can play the video game, uh, you can work your dribble, and these are all wonderful things. But the only way to learn basketball is play the darn game. Like you got to be in it because it's a it's a game of motion and fluidity, and it's uh it's like a mobile. One part moves and another part has to move, and that's how you play the game. And so you just over time you watch these players who just kind of they know where they're they know where their teammate is, they know where the pass has to go, they know when to step in, they know they they just learn how to play the game. It becomes a part of the fabric of who they are. And I would tell my players if if in the middle of a play you have to think we're dead, you don't you can't think, you react. So the reaction has to become internalized. And I think that's what discernment is like. It's over time letting it become more and more the fabric of being sensitive to the spirit, knowing who to go to for input, because there are a lot of people you can go to that you probably shouldn't. Yeah. And and and and especially those who are just want you to feel good and just want to say the thing you want to hear, right? And so the more I'm quote in the game, the more I'm uh around leaders who are effective leaders that uh women and men I look up to and respect, the more I uh uh take the risk of you know, spending a time with like like uh uh Preston Poor and say, Hey, can you teach me some things? I want to learn some things, I want to go to the plan, but can you coach me on how to actually live this thing out? Because I don't know what to do. You know, I'm 60 years old. I think I have a pretty good sense of what I'm doing, but I have my own executive coach because I've got to have somebody who helps me process some of these things. But I learned that over time. And so I think it's just time spent being with leaders, practicing leadership, in in a recognition that the spirit of God is the real leader. I think so it's just like that. I think think of it like we're in the middle of it and we're practicing and we're doing it, but we also have this awareness of this we don't know without the spirit of God. We don't know without standing on the word, we don't know without other folks, and the enemy is gonna try to isolate us and get us. And so we just learn to resist that. And that's where I think the discernment comes. And you just have to practice it. And and let's just name it because it's important for the listener to know this. You're not gonna learn discernment without making some mistakes.

SPEAKER_00

Hmm.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's unfortunate news.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Life's not like that. So that's where some of the faith over fear comes on. I've been called to lead. I told I've told my team, you would rather I led and made mistakes than me not lead.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

We are safer with me making mistakes and learning to discern than if I just sit back passively. And so I would say to leaders, lead, learn. Don't be afraid of failure. Don't let the enemy condemn you and shame you, and and don't be afraid to stand up in front of a group of people and say, I was wrong.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I'm sorry. It won't, you won't lose the people, you'll gain them when you do that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's good. I mean, it takes a lot of courage, as we've used that word before, to admit a mistake and even take it and learn from it. So it does.

SPEAKER_03

And the enemy again wants to isolate you. So you keep that thing inside and it turns into shame. The next time you're more passive, you're more you kind of you know guard yourself in your leadership. And a guarded heart is not a leader's heart.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

An open heart is a leader's heart.

SPEAKER_00

That's good. That's really good. Um, so we've talked a lot about overcoming just the schemes of the enemy. Um what would you say in this chapter, really in our conversation about standing, um, is something you would take back to your workplace specifically?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Well, this the the clear articulation of the meaning of the Ephesians 6 passage, I think is just really important. And and what I'm going to say about that is I want to get that into my heart. I want to get that into the fact, I want to dwell on that. I want to let that soak. I want to marinate, whatever word you want to use, I really want that to become a part of what I what I know in my head, my perspective, but also begin to posture in my heart. And then the thing I would carry out of that is uh out of what the chapter and what we're talking about is I I know sometimes you're going to be afraid. We all are afraid. Let's just name that. But when you see him for who he is, you don't have to be. And the battle really, Caroline, is not against the enemy. It it's against your flesh not wanting to just trust that he's really good and he's God. And so that enemy, the enemy doesn't have anything. He can't take you away from your father. He can't take you away from Jesus. He can't take he can't destroy you. And so ultimately you're gonna win. And when you know that, it really changes the rules of engagement. And I think that's what this chapter on stand is, is is be strong in this truth and be strong in who you are in Christ. That's what overcomes the enemy schemes.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so good. So basically responding out of victory, standing in victory, uh, understanding that it's our perspective and our our calling to posture ourselves before God and his purposes and letting him kind of shake out the details.

SPEAKER_03

I love the way you said that. You know, I'm gonna add a word that I hadn't thought of until I just listened to you and you you you didn't say it, but you did. It's our birthright.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It is our birthright as sons and daughters of the king to be victorious. It's it's not even a negotiable, it's not a merit badge we got. It's not a promotion we earned, it's a birthright.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, drop the mic.

SPEAKER_03

That is Well, that was actually from you. I thought of the word because of you. So I'll give you the credit.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'll claim victorious. That's a awesome one. Um, that is something to carry every day. Um, I'm so encouraged by this just to hear you talk about the fact that leadership in and of itself is tough. You know, going into new territory is something that takes a lot of courage. Um, but we find that courage in kind of keeping our eyes on our good God, um, who is sovereign and uh will do his good work um as, you know, and we are able to participate in it by just showing up, standing, and being faithful. So uh you have encouraged me. I am just so happy to know that we're all taking these principles back into our workplaces. Um, and I love what you're doing in Knoxville and through your podcast and and books as well. So thank you for being a part.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, thank you guys. It's really from the very beginning, from kind of the inception of when Preston began to really imagine this and talk about it. It just felt like, yeah, that's of God. And um, it's worth it. And I'm just thankful all of you guys keep contributing to the development of this vision.

SPEAKER_02

Do you feel like one person in your personal life and another in professional life? Are you driven by your faith and yet you feel like that you can't bring it to your workplace? Does this disconnect make you feel like that you're not honoring God and everything that he's called you to do? Do you feel like that you're merely surviving day-to-day at work without purpose or meaning? Do you want to grow your influence and possibly shape your work environment, but you're not sure how? Hi, I'm Preston Poor, author of Disciple Leader, inspiration from a Fortune 500 executive for transforming your workplace by pursuing Christ. You know, honestly, it took me a long time to figure out that it's not about changing your leadership style. While learning to be a better leader certainly is necessary, and many excellent books have been written to that end. Changing your style will not change who you are. Listen to this. Who you are needs to change before what you do changes. Becoming who you're meant to be as a Christian leader does not begin with focusing on leadership. Your calling toward better leadership is a calling toward deeper discipleship. My new book, Disciple Leader, provides struggling, stagnant, or merely surviving Christian business leaders with a framework to grow their influence through becoming a redemptive, Christ-like presence in the workplace and living a more fulfilling personal professional life. Through the book's 10 dual discipleship and leadership principles, stories and application, you'll experience personal professional transformation. For example, you'll change from struggling to live out your faith in the workplace to being empowered to positively shape your environment. You'll move from a stagnant, stale, dormant faith to one that's growing, active, and fulfilling. You'll shift from merely surviving day-to-day to thriving and living a life of purpose and meaning. If you're struggling to live out your faith in the workplace, worry that you're missing the opportunity to make a positive difference, or fear that you're living an unfulfilled life, it all stops here. Visit my website, PrestonPore.com, and order your copy of Disciple Leader Today and begin to experience personal and professional transformation.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So, Rick, as we're getting here towards the end, uh we have a little segment that I like to call the hot seat. It's just a few fun and easy questions uh for ourselves and the audience to get to know you a little bit better. Uh, they could uh require uh a sound or a response or what have you. So are you ready?

SPEAKER_03

All right, we'll do what we can.

SPEAKER_01

All right, let's go. Um giving presents or getting presents?

SPEAKER_03

Uh in my heart would love to be a gift giver, but I'm a horrible gift giver. So getting getting usually gets it right. So my wife could say he's a terrible gift giver.

SPEAKER_01

Good. All right, make a high-pitched sound. Perfect. Um, from one to ten, how hot do you like in your shower water?

SPEAKER_03

Eight.

SPEAKER_01

Eight. Perfect.

SPEAKER_03

My wife gets in and says that is way too hot.

SPEAKER_01

Do you like the smell of gasoline?

SPEAKER_03

I do not.

SPEAKER_01

Me neither. Can you touch your toes without bending your knees?

SPEAKER_03

Um no more than 30 degrees.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, fair. What is one of your weird quirks?

SPEAKER_03

Um, when I'm podcasting, I have to remember not to breathe through my mouth because I have a tendency to go, and my producer just it just creates more work. And so you will, if you've watched me at all when you've watched me do this on the Zoom, I'll turn away from the mic or I won't breathe for a while because I go, and it's just really bad. So hopefully I have not ruined your podcast.

SPEAKER_01

All right. Uh have you ever tasted soap before?

unknown

I have.

SPEAKER_01

Me too. Uh, if you were given an all-experience paid trip to Cleveland, would you take it?

SPEAKER_03

Cleveland, Tennessee, or Cleveland, Ohio?

SPEAKER_01

Whichever one you want.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I would definitely go. I was born in Cleveland, Tennessee, so I can go there. Sure, I'd go to Cleveland, Ohio. I have friends in Cleveland, Ohio, and I'm somewhat of a Browns fan, so sure.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Um, do you currently own any stuffed animals?

SPEAKER_03

I do. I have a bear. I mean, uh, an elephant. Well, I have a bear, but I have an elephant. His name is Carl. And uh, whenever we get into tense places on one of our teams, I bring Carl in the room and tell them at the end of this meeting Carl is to be the only elephant in the room. So I use Carl as my object lesson on elephants in the room.

SPEAKER_01

That's beautiful. I love the symbolism there. Um, if you could buy any type of food right now, what would you buy?

SPEAKER_03

Ice cream. Always, always ice cream.

SPEAKER_01

I like that answer. Who is your favorite superhero and why?

SPEAKER_03

I like Spider-Man. He's kind of not. Um, I just think he's uh you get him out of the uniform and he's just kind of a quirky, awkward dude. And I can't relate to being Spider-Man, but I can relate to being him.

SPEAKER_01

Fair. I love that. That's good.

SPEAKER_02

That's uh Ben, thanks for uh leading the hot seat and and Rick, thanks for playing along on that. Um and so as we're closing up today, I'm gonna ask you, Rick, uh, what's your one takeaway? As you read through this chapter, uh, we had our discussion today. If you had something you want to share with our listeners uh to leave them with, what would that be today?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I think you know your story you and you hold this pretty consistently through. At some point, Preston, every leader feels like giving up. At some point, every leader feels discouraged. At some point, every leader thinks this is just not worth it. It just this isn't work, it's just not worth it. And the enemy just wants to pounce on that. And to be able to come back and say, Is this of the Lord? Is this his battle? Is this right? Is this good? Then it's worth it, whatever the outcome is. And that's what I took away from the chapter in our conversation.

SPEAKER_02

That's really good, Rick. Hey, thank you so much for being on today. You have been uh just a wonderful guest. Uh, I know you're a pro at this, we're the amateurs, but uh it was great to have you in the seat today. And uh thank you, thank you, and thank you so much for how much you and the church, fellowship church, have meant to our family over the years. It's just been just a wonderful gift. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's the most amazing part of my life, the stories that somehow I wind up falling into being a part of. So I'm really glad to be a part of the uh the four poor family and all four of you guys. Uh, love you guys and I appreciate you, and I'm very thankful for you.

SPEAKER_02

All right, love you too. Take care. Well, that's all for today's episode, and thanks for listening. Join us again next time when we explore another life-changing principle from Disciple Leader. And be sure to subscribe to our podcast on iTunes or other streaming platforms so you'll never miss an episode. Plus, if you don't have a copy of Disciple Leader, stop by my website at PrestonPort.com and order yours today. I'll end with this. Transformed lives, transformed cultures. I encourage you to allow God to work in you and through you to change your world.